About the recent video on Rise fans

helljumper

I've been waiting for ages for someone to make a video like the one you recently published, as I feel almost the exact same when it comes to that side of the fandom. I appreciated the video a ton because it's long overdue someone call them out. For a while I felt crazy for saying I didn't like the show on Twitter only to inevitably get jumped by a bunch of zoomers with Rise profile pics, usually followed by the same comebacks: "Shut up boomer, you just don't like change" or "The animation is great, how can you hate this show?." In addition to all the points you brought up in the video, I've also noticed a couple of behaviors from my time interacting with the Rise fandom that really needs to be called out by the community at large a lot more. I agree wholeheartedly with the point made in the video that they are leeches who don't contribute anything to the franchise, but I would argue they are even worse, as they have overall been a detriment and harm to discussion and content surrounding TMNT.

Rise more than any other of the shows' fandoms I've noticed has this weird, cult-like following behind it, and their utter refusal to financially support or even invest time in TMNT as a franchise is a symptom of it. Their fans have convinced themselves it's the best thing since sliced bread and that complaints about its direction from longtime fans are simply "out of touch boomers," it's an unbelievably entitled mindset to think that people who have grown accustomed to a certain franchise don't have the right to dislike when something completely goes out of its way to subvert everything they know and love and are merely just old men yelling at clouds. The best analogy I can think of is the honestly notorious Snyder fandom within DC, who act with almost the exact same cult-like and dismissive manner when approaching criticism, especially when coupled with their annoying hashtags and the constant denial that their product was polarizing and/or just sucked, rather than Paramount/WB being big meanies who killed it for "no reason."

Which also leads me into my second point, I legitimately don't think Rise fans even like the TMNT as characters. Too many times I've seen them say on social media that Leo was "boring, and that "Rise actually gave him a personality" or that Raph was "a one-note tough guy," and Rise "made him an actually good brother." The Leo one especially pissed me off since he's always been my favorite of the 4. It's like these zoomers think the only way he could "have a personality" is if he acted and talked like a Joss Whedon character. Ignoring that both of these statements are categorically false, the fact they love to go out of their way to shit on past versions of the characters in order to prop up their in-name-only bastardizations of them makes me wonder if they even liked TMNT to begin with.

Lastly, the shipping. I've lost count of the amount of fujoshis, Tumblrites and other assorted dregs of the internet who have flooded into the TMNT fandom thanks to Rise. I am aware there was a small but noticeable shipping community (one which Sophie Campbell willingly and happily participated in too) within the fandom during 2012's run and prior, but it was nowhere near as obnoxious nor as in your face as it has been since Rise. I didn't even know what T-cest was until I saw it in a Rise fan's Twitter bio just a year ago. Rise fans also seem to have an obsession with constantly headcanoning Mikey and especially Leo as gay and/or transgender, and later treating it as gospel that fans must obey or else they're a bad person. It often extends into other TMNT products as well, polluting the content most normal fans want to see in those spaces, and they get ultra defensive about it when called out too.

I know this was a long rant, but for the longest time I felt like I was the only one who felt this way and it was refreshing enough to see someone finally call out the madness that has been allowed to perpetuate within this fandom. The more I see how its fanbase behaves, the more I began to despise the show and everything it did even more than I already do.

Tatoruzu

helljumper

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

I pretty much agree with all of your points.

It's frustrating trying to talk about these issues because anytime they're brought up, you'll inevitably get a lot of people saying "well I liked Rise and I'm not like that." This is probably why people don't talk about this often even though obviously a lot of people feel the same way.

Scrimder

Tatoruzu Yeah coming from someone who likes Rise, I've honeslty only seen small portion of this behavior as I don't really interact with that side of the fanbase that much besides fanart. I wanna recommed other stuff from tmnt to risefans but then I remember they either won't care enough to check it out or won't like thanks to how different it is from other tmnt. It also is true they have a habit of being very attached to rise itself to the point they can't accept it's over.

helljumper Now, I wanted to touch on headcannon thing you brought up. In my opinion headcannons are fine as long as they are treated as what they are, headcannons. People are allowed to post about or discuss them but it's another thing when you start treating it as definitve fact. On the topic of sexuality I pretty much have the same logic here. You can post or chat about it as long as you're not being over zealous about it or trying to treat your head cannon as fact. Things like tcest obviously cross the line and are disgusting, anyone who headcannons anything of the sorts should be called immediately. So while I believe making headcannons is fine it becomes another thing when you treat it as cannon and gets even worse when you get mad at people for not thinking the same way you do. (And gets even worse when it's something pedophilic or incesty)

helljumper

Tatoruzu Yeah. I have a feeling there's a ton of others who feel similar but don't say it for the exact reasons you stated, or having a legion of zoomers jump them on Twitter smugly proclaiming that they didn't like it because "they're old and just don't like change." It feels impossible to have a reasonable discussion about that show because of how its most vocal defenders behave. It reeks of entitlement

Scrimder Yeah I more or less agree with that. For better or worse people are always gonna have headcanons (including ones I personally find weird) but my issue is more specifically with how Rise fans (of course there's some fans of the other shows who do this too, but Rise by far has the most of these types) seem to treat most of them as gospel, which is a problem. The minute you start viewing fan theories as objective fact and start personally attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them is the minute you've lost the plot.

Tatoruzu

Scrimder

I've honestly only seen small portion of this behavior

Consider yourself lucky. Almost all of the Rise accounts on X/Twitter are like that.

On the topic of sexuality I pretty much have the same logic here. You can post or chat about it as long as you're not being over zealous about it or trying to treat your head cannon as fact. Things like tcest obviously cross the line and are disgusting, anyone who headcannons anything of the sorts should be called immediately.

The sad fact is that the majority of the characters in TMNT are children, outside of some versions of April and Casey. The majority of headcanons and "ships" are about underage characters.

For what it's worth, most of the time, they're just harmless drawings. I don't really care if people want to be a part of communities with ships or headcanons, I just don't want to see it. But the ubiquitous nature of it in the Rise community coupled with the obnoxious popularity of that community on social media means it's almost impossible to avoid ships and headcanons as a TMNT fan these days.

I'm not going to advocate for censorship. It's just frustrating to come across all the time.

Scrimder

helljumper Yeah, but keep in mind headcannons aren't always about character indentity, it can be something silly like "X likes eating cupcakes when stressed" or something depressing like "X commited sucided becuase of the loss of thier lover not the loss of their town". Really every fandom is going to have the people that make you roll your eyes or give you the creeps. If anything that's just sign the media is doing well if it manages to get all these people sharing and expressing things for love for it (unfortunately even if that means being immature, obsessive and straight up creepy). The best you can do is either ignore them, call them out, or just both.

Tatoruzu Well when you say it like that I realize I probably haven't seen much of this behavior becuase I don't have twitter, never have and (hopefully) never will. My main platforms for tmnt have been Youtube and Reddit. I don't really care for ships either. Used too in the past but I can't be botherd anymore. I'm fine will people having fun and all, but it does get annoying if it's constantly in your face all the time. It's like "yeah it's a little odd this person seems so obessed with the idea of a teenage turtle and salamander kissing but hey atleast they're happy and keeping it PG!" Things like r34 and proships are just abhorrent and I wonder what's going through these people's head when they make this shit. It really just does kinda suck when people choose to love tmnt for the romance out of all things.

helljumper

Tatoruzu But the ubiquitous nature of it in the Rise community coupled with the obnoxious popularity of that community on social media means it's almost impossible to avoid ships and headcanons as a TMNT fan these days.

This coupled with how defensive they get over them, is why I despise it so much. Like you said, it's become virtually impossible to not encounter fujoshis and shippers at some point as a TMNT fan now, which is especially uncomfortable given almost all of the main characters are underage. From what I've seen, these types have a particularly big fixation with Leonardo and/or Donatello when it comes to that kind of shit. It pisses me off that I have to stumble upon it just because I happen to be a fan of the same franchise as these people.

For what it's worth though, the demographic that makes up the majority of the most vocal Rise fans and shippers seems to largely be an overlap with the "animation is cinema" crowd, so TMNT isn't a particularly special case in that regard and it seems more like a problem within the fanbases of all franchises with a history of cartoon adaptations, I know Transformers has this exact same problem and a similarly sized subcommunity of obnoxious shippers too. But it's still infuriating to come across all the time nonetheless as a fan.

Tatoruzu

helljumper TMNT isn't a particularly special case in that regard and it seems more like a problem within the fanbases of all franchises with a history of cartoon adaptations

Yep. It's why I specifically categorize them as separate from TMNT fans. They're not really TMNT fans. They're fans of Rise. They do the same exact thing to everything else that has "queer" potential.

Notice that you never see these people in discussions about The Last Ronin. It's because they can't glean anything queer from The Last Ronin, so they have no interest in it.

(Again, not saying there aren't some TMNT fans that also like Rise — those people are different in my mind)

Tatoruzu

Scrimder Yeah, it's mostly a Twitter and Tumblr thing. But there's actually a huge audience for these people on YouTube. Here's one video for example (CRINGE ALERT):

This video has 400k views... The Rise community is massive and they are obsessed with the "queerness" and "shippable" aspects of the show — they don't care about what makes the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles actually ninjas. And frankly, they don't care about anything else in the franchise except for Rise. They just want queer "slaaaay queen" content.

I wish I was exaggerating. The views, comments, and everything else speaks for itself.

I might be digressing a bit here, but I think this is important context for those who might not be familiar with the Rise community.

helljumper

Tatoruzu The Rise community is massive and they are obsessed with the "queerness" and "shippable" aspects of the show — they don't care about what makes the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles actually ninjas.

Going off on a bit of a tangent. I'm not sure if you've heard this story before, but Lego conducted a study back in 2012 that helped them develop a new line targeted towards young girls. They were trying to break into that market after decades of failure, and sought to gain better insight into the ways boys and girls interact with things in order to better design and market their product. What they found is that little boys tried to become the fictional character (i.e. Batman) they were presented with by learning everything there is to learn about them and transforming themselves into the character, while little girls tried to make the same character become them by transforming them into a reflection of themselves. Of course there are exceptions to both of these cases, but it was the key Lego needed to make a line that ultimately went on and became a hit among little girls.

When you consider a sizable chunk of Rise's most vocal fans on social media are teenage girls with very entitled and childish personalities, that study contextualizes a ton of why Rise fans approach the franchise and these characters in the way they do. Obviously most female TMNT fans don't act like this, especially older ones, but the fact a considerable amount of Rise fans tend to be young, emotionally stunted zoomer girls with extremely childish and narcissistic personalities (The types who throw 13 flags and a watermelon in their bio) is why I consider this relevant.

helljumper

Tatoruzu Yep. They're tourists. I see them as a subculture within the "animation is cinema" crowd rather than as a part of the TMNT fanbase itself. The same crowd who constantly rave on about "realistic depictions of panic attacks" in cartoons. From my own experience, most of them seem to be that too: general cartoon fans who like Rise specifically and have little desire to interact with TMNT as a franchise. And if they do, their experience with it is usually just Mutant Mayhem, which was a movie the "animation is cinema" crowd at large jumped on last year anyways.

Tatoruzu Notice that you never see these people in discussions about The Last Ronin. It's because they can't glean anything queer from The Last Ronin, so they have no interest in it.

Same goes for all of the other "darker" versions of the Turtles like Mirage, 1990 and 2007. Some will mention 2003 every now and then but it's rarely due to a serious investment in the show itself and almost always in the context of shipping Leo with Usagi (Which is pedophilia given both characters' ages mind you).

Misaori

Si algo está claro es que este fandom está totalmente aparte del fandom clásico de TMNT. Clásico porque, el fandom es normal, sin etiquetas, sólo quieren TMNT normal. Sin ships ni grandes cambios. Y sí, quieren que sigan siendo los mismos personajes que han sido siempre. A lo mejor con pequeñas variaciones en los personajes o nuevos giros en la historia, pero que sean sólo eso, ligeras. No es malo no querer cambiar algo demasiado, es conservarlo. Que es un poco boomer esa visión, pues tal vez, o llámalo "normal" pero la otra visión es demasiado lo contrario. Hay una gran parte del fandom, el clásico, que apuesta por TMNT del de siempre, en el que me incluyo. Y otra parte del fandom que quiere lo que trajo Rise, tan alojada en el estilo de todos estos dibujos animados que han aparecido en los últimos años, con etiquetas LGTBQ (incluso codificadas) y trastornos de personalidad (véase Donnie, con su autismo), todos ellos con un estilo más bien como de Anime/Manga y cambiando totalmente a los personajes de los originales. Por eso es que normalmente a ellos no les interesa TMNT (no todos, parece ser), porque lo quieren ver todo a su imagen y semejanza, no como lo que es. Yo como lectora o espectadora, en lo que respecta a TMNT, no quiero que me adoctrinen, no quiero saber nada de etiquetas o que me quieran contar que tienen este autismo,el otro disforia de género o que se pintan las uñas. Entiéndase, quiero leer o ver algo que me aleje de la realidad, que me entretenga y que no me cuente nada que no me interese. Por eso este TMNT y su fandom tienen que estar a parte, las ideas que quieran venderles a ellos, seguirán llegando, como todo. Pero eso debería llegar desde cero y de su imaginación, no apoderándose de personajes que ya se han creado y derribándolos. Crear desde cero sus historias y sus personajes hechos para llevar etiquetas del mundo real. Yo no quiero saber nada, ni que me sugieran nada del mundo real, yo quiero ciencia ficción, lucha y ninjas y sí, voy a decirlo, quiero personajes heteros, porque es lo que han sido siempre.

Tatoruzu

Misaori Yeah, exactly. They should just make their own original characters instead of putting a TMNT skin on whatever it is that they truly want.

It's not that we don't like change or variation, but it should be clear to anyone that Rise isn't just a "change" — it's like it's in a completely different category from the 40 years of TMNT history before it.

People can say "well, the 1987 show is much different than the Mirage comics" but that is such a bad faith argument. I mean, there were a ton of Mirage fans pissed about the '87 show as well. But at least there wasn't any precedent at that time. The comic was a mere three to four years old. The 1987 show can't really be considered a stark deviation for the franchise when the show itself was part of the foundation for the franchise, along with the Mirage comics.

Together, the 1987 show and the Mirage comics both formed the foundation for the franchise, and everything else after that built off of that foundation. Everything from the movies, to the 2003 show, to the 2012 show incorporated the two original ingredients: '87 and Mirage.

Rise is different in that it isn't just a "change" — it is a shakeup at the foundational level of the franchise. It changes everything about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It would be like making a "cake" without flour or eggs.

Tatoruzu

helljumper That bit of information is mind-blowing and makes perfect sense.

helljumper

Tatoruzu Yeah, it's literally the embodiment of the "Now we can finally feel represented; Yes that's literally me" meme.

Misaori

Es muy interesante esa info! creo que hablas de Lego friends que fué la primera línea de Lego para las niñas. Tienes toda la razón, los niños tienen tendencia a querer ser ese superheroe mientras que las niñas quieren ser ese superheroe transformado,y es una diferencia muy significativa la verdad.